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Thread: UK General Election 2017/Corbyn & Labour thread

  1. #781
    Paperback Writer RevForum Administrator Amoeba's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2017 thread

    To be, or not to be, that is the question: Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer,
    Or to take arms against a sea of troubles, And by opposing end them.

  2. #782
    Paperback Writer RevForum Administrator Amoeba's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2017 thread

    To be, or not to be, that is the question: Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer,
    Or to take arms against a sea of troubles, And by opposing end them.

  3. #783
    Paperback Writer RevForum Administrator Amoeba's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2017 thread

    Watching the video just now. Sarwar comes over as glib neoliberal electoral cancer trained in the Blair school of bullshitting.

    If he wins it will be a disaster.
    To be, or not to be, that is the question: Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer,
    Or to take arms against a sea of troubles, And by opposing end them.

  4. #784
    Paperback Writer RevForum Administrator Amoeba's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2017 thread

    Gotta be honest though, Leonard doesn't particularly come over well either. Corbyn has this naturalness to him that made him stand out from the professional class, but Leonard appears to be part of it even if he has more left-wing politics.
    To be, or not to be, that is the question: Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer,
    Or to take arms against a sea of troubles, And by opposing end them.

  5. #785
    Paperback Writer RevForum Administrator Amoeba's Avatar
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    To be, or not to be, that is the question: Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer,
    Or to take arms against a sea of troubles, And by opposing end them.

  6. #786
    Paperback Writer RevForum Administrator Amoeba's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2017/Corbyn & Labour thread

    To be, or not to be, that is the question: Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer,
    Or to take arms against a sea of troubles, And by opposing end them.

  7. #787
    Paperback Writer RevForum Administrator Amoeba's Avatar
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    To be, or not to be, that is the question: Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer,
    Or to take arms against a sea of troubles, And by opposing end them.

  8. #788
    Paperback Writer RevForum Administrator Amoeba's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2017/Corbyn & Labour thread

    To be, or not to be, that is the question: Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer,
    Or to take arms against a sea of troubles, And by opposing end them.

  9. #789
    Paperback Writer RevForum Administrator Amoeba's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2017/Corbyn & Labour thread

    To be, or not to be, that is the question: Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer,
    Or to take arms against a sea of troubles, And by opposing end them.

  10. #790
    Senior Voting Member Rosa Lichtenstein's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2017/Corbyn & Labour thread

    122 council by-elections have been held since GE2017.
    Results so far:

    Lab: 53 (+9)
    Con: 46 (-10)
    LDem: 13 (+4)
    Grn: 2 (+2)
    UKIP: 0 (-5)
    [Oth]: 8 (-)
    https://twitter.com/britainelects/st...11071688609792
    The emancipation of the working class will be an act of the workers themselves.

    http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/index.htm

  11. #791
    Paperback Writer RevForum Administrator Amoeba's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2017/Corbyn & Labour thread

    Leonard has won the Scottish Labour leadership! https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-labour-leader

    This means there's another pro-Corbyn member on Labour's ruling body, the NEC, and as they're also likely to win the three member-elected NEC positions he will have an outright majority, enabling him to accelerate that purging of Blairite elements from the party bureaucracy and speed up democratization efforts.

    Any thoughts on this Demo?

    The result was:

    R. Leonard: 56.7%
    A. Sarwar: 43.3%
    To be, or not to be, that is the question: Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer,
    Or to take arms against a sea of troubles, And by opposing end them.

  12. #792
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2017/Corbyn & Labour thread

    It will depend a lot on whether the MSPs let him lead him of course. Hopefully if nothing else this will force the SNP further left though.

  13. #793
    Paperback Writer RevForum Administrator Amoeba's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2017 thread

    Just want to reiterate this about the political being inherently contingent from the perspective of the present.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amoeba View Post
    Yes but those are the kinds of "facts of the matter" that led people to say the Tories were destined to have a 50+ seat majority and that Corbyn had no chance in hell of winning the Labour leadership.

    All the points you mentioned can be countered by a whole host of others that may very well indicate that Leonard will win, and rather easily too. It's very hard to think them now (and very few people do), but then again, it was very hard to think the reasons that would lead to the above-mentioned being wrong and Trump winning.

    I guess we'll see how it goes.
    Benjamin's first thesis captures this point in relation to the past as well:

    "It is well-known that an automaton once existed, which was so constructed that it could counter any move of a chess-player with a counter-move, and thereby assure itself of victory in the match. A puppet in Turkish attire, water-pipe in mouth, sat before the chessboard, which rested on a broad table. Through a system of mirrors, the illusion was created that this table was transparent from all sides. In truth, a hunchbacked dwarf who was a master chess-player sat inside, controlling the hands of the puppet with strings. One can envision a corresponding object to this apparatus in philosophy. The puppet called “historical materialism” is always supposed to win. It can do this with no further ado against any opponent, so long as it employs the services of theology, which as everyone knows is small and ugly and must be kept out of sight."

    https://www.marxists.org/reference/a...40/history.htm
    To be, or not to be, that is the question: Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer,
    Or to take arms against a sea of troubles, And by opposing end them.

  14. #794
    Senior Voting Member Rosa Lichtenstein's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2017 thread

    I'm sorry, Amoeba, but I don't see the point of the Benjamin quote, especially when he has clearly elided the distinction between Historical Materialism [HM] and Dialectical Materialism. The latter always wins since it can be used to justify or rationalise anything expedient and its opposite, often by the very same theorist, in the the book, article or speech (since it glories in 'contradiction'); the former does not. HM has the possibility of defeat built into it:

    Freeman and slave, patrician and plebeian, lord and serf, guild-master and journeyman, in a word, oppressor and oppressed, stood in constant opposition to one another, carried on an uninterrupted, now hidden, now open fight, a fight that each time ended, either in a revolutionary reconstitution of society at large, or in the common ruin of the contending classes.
    Bold added.

    https://www.marxists.org/archive/mar...o/ch01.htm#007

    If you wanted to initiate a debate about HM, you should perhaps have started a new thread.
    The emancipation of the working class will be an act of the workers themselves.

    http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/index.htm

  15. #795
    Paperback Writer RevForum Administrator Amoeba's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2017 thread

    Your reading of that quote is odd. By victory he doesn't mean literal victory of one side over another in some historical case, he means the victory of the method of historical materialism in the epistemic sense, that it can explain everything that has happened "in all hitherto existing society".

    And while you may still believe in that promise of classical Marxism and its postulation of historical materialism as the be-all end-all method to truly understand the past as it really was, I agree with Benjamin that that's an untenable theology.
    To be, or not to be, that is the question: Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer,
    Or to take arms against a sea of troubles, And by opposing end them.

  16. #796
    Senior Voting Member Rosa Lichtenstein's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2017 thread

    Amoeba:

    Your reading of that quote is odd. By victory he doesn't mean literal victory of one side over another in some historical case, he means the victory of the method of historical materialism in the epistemic sense, that it can explain everything that has happened "in all hitherto existing society".
    Ok, since you are so impressed with his view of HM, let's see your proof (or, indeed, his proof) that it is able to explain everything "in all hitherto existing society". And if you can't do this, perhaps you'll withdraw your claim that it's "an untenable theology".

    And, good luck reproducing Benjamin's proof, since he neglected to provide one, content merely to assert this about HM dogmatically -- indeed, assert it theologically, too. Looks like you have uncritically swallowed his claims; in which case you resemble rather too uncomfortably the credulous souls who frequent the Gospel Halls, Churches, Temples and Mosques of this planet.
    The emancipation of the working class will be an act of the workers themselves.

    http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/index.htm

  17. #797
    Paperback Writer RevForum Administrator Amoeba's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2017 thread

    I have no problem at all resembling folks who frequent any of those places, which are actually quite pleasant and tend to have great food on offer, unlike the Marxist Church ("reading group") I attended which only offered a shitty ham sandwich and a reading of Engels' Dialectics of Nature (true story).
    To be, or not to be, that is the question: Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer,
    Or to take arms against a sea of troubles, And by opposing end them.

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