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Thread: Trotsky On Identity

  1. #41
    Senior Voting Member Rosa Lichtenstein's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trotsky On Identity

    This is one of them:

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/9258...3769776315876/

    I'll try to find the other one. [It's a pain trying to find anything on FB!]
    Last edited by Rosa Lichtenstein; 05-03-2016 at 4:02 PM.
    The emancipation of the working class will be an act of the workers themselves.

    http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/index.htm

  2. #42
    Senior Voting Member Rosa Lichtenstein's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trotsky On Identity

    The emancipation of the working class will be an act of the workers themselves.

    http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/index.htm

  3. #43
    Senior Voting Member Rosa Lichtenstein's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trotsky On Identity

    The thread I mentioned earlier has now broken the record for the longest one on FB:

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/9258...3769776315876/
    The emancipation of the working class will be an act of the workers themselves.

    http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/index.htm

  4. #44
    Senior Voting Member Rosa Lichtenstein's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trotsky On Identity

    I have become embroiled in several other threads on FB, which now seem to be petering out.

    In which case, when JC finally gives up the ghost trying to defend Lenin's hopeless theory (in the 'Materialism and Empirio-Criticism' thread), I will be freed up to continue to demolish this theory (Dialectical Materialism), beginning with Engels's lamentable 'First Law', the alleged change of 'Quantity' into 'Quality'.
    The emancipation of the working class will be an act of the workers themselves.

    http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/index.htm

  5. #45
    Senior Voting Member Rosa Lichtenstein's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trotsky On Identity

    I think I have argued the Dialectical Mystics on FB to a standstill, so I am now writing my long overdue demolition of Engels's 'First Law'; it should be ready to post in the next few days.
    The emancipation of the working class will be an act of the workers themselves.

    http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/index.htm

  6. #46
    Voting Member Kripke's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trotsky On Identity

    Thank you very much for your posts here Rosa, quite thought provoking. I can't believe anyone still takes dialectical mysticism seriously.

  7. #47
    Senior Voting Member Rosa Lichtenstein's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trotsky On Identity

    Me too! I'll be posting more in a week or so; I have just become bogged down again with a few recalcitrant DM-fans on Facebook.
    The emancipation of the working class will be an act of the workers themselves.

    http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/index.htm

  8. #48
    Administrator RevForum Administrator CornetJoyce's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trotsky On Identity

    Quote Originally Posted by Kripke View Post
    I can't believe anyone still takes dialectical mysticism seriously.
    Without dialectical mysticism, how could you understand that 7 is a majority of 15?
    Einstein on marxology:
    "In the realm of the seekers after truth there is no human authority.
    Whoever attempts to play the magistrate there founders on the laughter of the Gods."

  9. #49
    Senior Voting Member ravn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trotsky On Identity

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosa Lichtenstein View Post
    I think I have argued the Dialectical Mystics on FB to a standstill, so I am now writing my long overdue demolition of Engels's 'First Law'; it should be ready to post in the next few days.

    This is nonsense. Formal logic identity (A == A), & the dialectical law of unity & opposites are two different things. One is viewing things in a static way & the other is considering things in motion. This is some seriously counter-revolutionary crap you've been peddling.

  10. #50
    Senior Voting Member Rosa Lichtenstein's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trotsky On Identity

    ravn (adopting the DM-tactic of confusing scatological abuse for clarity of argument):

    This is nonsense. Formal logic identity (A == A), & the dialectical law of unity & opposites are two different things. One is viewing things in a static way & the other is considering things in motion. This is some seriously counter-revolutionary crap you've been peddling.
    1) I'd like to see your proof/evidence that Formal Logic [FL] sees 'things in a static way' -- and you'll need to do far more than regurgitate Hegel, Engels, Plekhanov and Trotsky.

    2) Odd that you should mention motion, since it is quite easy to show that if, per impossible, 'dialectics' were true, motion and change would be impossible.

    Drag your 'knowledge' out of the 19th century:

    http://www.anti-dialectics.co.uk/page%2007_03.htm

    3) My argument doesn't depend on FL.

    4) Trotsky attacked the wrong target, and ignored identity.

    5) Great revolutionary you are, pushing ideas that have presided over a century or more of almost total failure.

    [What was that again about 'truth tested in practice'?]
    The emancipation of the working class will be an act of the workers themselves.

    http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/index.htm

  11. #51
    Senior Voting Member ravn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trotsky On Identity

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosa Lichtenstein View Post
    Odd that you should mention motion, since it is quite easy to show that if, per impossible, 'dialectics' were true, motion and change would be impossible.

    Motion is evidently the contradiction of a thing arriving at a point & departing from that point in the same instance. Knock yourself out denying that. Your anti-dialectics is a fraud.




    Quote Originally Posted by Rosa Lichtenstein View Post
    3) My argument doesn't depend on FL.

    4) Trotsky attacked the wrong target, and ignored identity.
    You're still trying to equivocate the formal law of identity with the dialectical law of unity and conflicting opposites.

  12. #52
    Senior Voting Member Rosa Lichtenstein's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trotsky On Identity

    ravn:

    Motion is evidently the contradiction of a thing arriving at a point & departing from that point in the same instance. Knock yourself out denying that. Your anti-dialectics is a fraud.
    1) So, you don't have any proof/evidence that FL sees 'things in a static way' -- but I am sure you'll keep repeating that mantra.

    2) I know you'll not answer this, but other than merely repeating Engels, what is your evidence that "motion is...the contradiction of a thing arriving at a point & departing from that point in the same instance"?

    3) "Knock yourself out denying that." I do, and will continue to deny it, and, oddly enough, I am still conscious. Upgrade your lack of knowledge of philosophy, since I 'deny' it at double PhD length and detail here:

    http://www.anti-dialectics.co.uk/page%2005.htm

    Or, wait a few weeks and I'll be summarising my demolition of this example of defective Ancient Greek word-magic (courtesy of Zeno) at this forum.

    You're still trying to equivocate the formal law of identity with the dialectical law of unity and conflicting opposites.
    Ok, smarty pants, quote me to this effect, or do you Dialectical Mystics not do evidence?
    The emancipation of the working class will be an act of the workers themselves.

    http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/index.htm

  13. #53
    Senior Voting Member Rosa Lichtenstein's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trotsky On Identity

    In fact, since the 'debates' over at FB have now completely died down (the DM-fans who were arguing with me there have given up, and are now content merely to post personal attacks and abuse -- same old same old...), and because this is now a hot topic (ravn having raised it), I will bring forward the above promise and post a summary of my demolition of Engels's a priori thought experiment (about motion), and post it in another thread here by the weekend.

    [My demolition of Engels's 'First Law' will appear soon after, followed by my proof that if Dialectical Materialism [DM] were true, change and motion would be impossible.]
    The emancipation of the working class will be an act of the workers themselves.

    http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/index.htm

  14. #54

    Default Re: Trotsky On Identity

    You do a lot of demolition Rosa - why so destructive?
    Marx-Senpai-Atsumariist

  15. #55
    Senior Voting Member Rosa Lichtenstein's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trotsky On Identity

    Because (1) I think Dialectical Materialism is incoherent and (2) I think this theory has seriously damaged Marxism almost from the beginning -- on the latter, see here:

    http://www.anti-dialectics.co.uk/page%2009_02.htm
    The emancipation of the working class will be an act of the workers themselves.

    http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/index.htm

  16. #56
    Senior Voting Member ravn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trotsky On Identity

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosa Lichtenstein View Post
    ravn:



    1) So, you don't have any proof/evidence that FL sees 'things in a static way' -- but I am sure you'll keep repeating that mantra.
    Obviously, identifying something as such & such can not signify anything about what it has been nor what it could be given all that is involved with it. For example, the capitol of the US hasn't always been Washington.



    Quote Originally Posted by Rosa Lichtenstein View Post
    2) I know you'll not answer this, but other than merely repeating Engels, what is your evidence that "motion is...the contradiction of a thing arriving at a point & departing from that point in the same instance"?
    When a train, for example, is not planning on stopping at a station, its arrival at T(0) is the same as its departure at T(0). Obviously, that's because the train is in constant motion through the station.





    Quote Originally Posted by Rosa Lichtenstein View Post
    I'll be summarising my demolition of this example of defective Ancient Greek word-magic (courtesy of Zeno) at this forum.
    DM doesn't present anything paradoxical about motion.
    Last edited by ravn; 05-20-2015 at 10:10 PM.

  17. #57
    Senior Voting Member ravn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trotsky On Identity

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosa Lichtenstein View Post
    Because (1) I think Dialectical Materialism is incoherent
    Or your thinking about DM is incoherent. Probably, deliberately so.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rosa Lichtenstein View Post
    (2) I think this theory has seriously damaged Marxism
    Or you're attempting, for some insidious reason, to seriously damage the science of revolution.

  18. #58
    Voting Member Slavic's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trotsky On Identity

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosa Lichtenstein View Post
    Because (1) I think Dialectical Materialism is incoherent and (2) I think this theory has seriously damaged Marxism almost from the beginning -- on the latter, see here:

    http://www.anti-dialectics.co.uk/page%2009_02.htm
    Oh man, that got a laugh out of me.

    As if Dialectical Materialism, or Anti-Dialectical Materialism had any weight whatsoever with bringing about socialism.

  19. #59
    Senior Voting Member Rosa Lichtenstein's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trotsky On Identity

    Slavic:

    As if Dialectical Materialism, or Anti-Dialectical Materialism had any weight whatsoever with bringing about socialism.
    Who said they had? Perhaps you need new glasses.
    The emancipation of the working class will be an act of the workers themselves.

    http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/index.htm

  20. #60
    Senior Voting Member Rosa Lichtenstein's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trotsky On Identity

    ravn:

    Obviously, identifying something as such & such can not signify anything about what it has been nor what it could be given all that is involved with it. For example, the capitol of the US hasn't always been Washington.
    1) What has that got to do with Formal Logic [FL]? Do you actually know what FL looks like? Here, this might help diminish your obvious ignorance by about 1%:

    http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logic-classical/

    It might stop you pontificating on something you clearly know nothing about (rather like, Hegel, Engels, Plekhanov, Lenin and Trotsky, in fact -- and I say that as a Trotskyist).

    2) So, we are still waiting for your proof/evidence that FL sees 'things in a static way'.

    Or you're attempting, for some insidious reason, to seriously damage the science of revolution.
    It's actually more akin to Astrology with DM attached to it. So, I am no more 'damaging' the revolutionary movement than if I were to attack, say, Isaac Newton's mysticism for corrupting his scientific and mathematical work:

    http://www.dnaindia.com/scitech/repo...vealed-1651464

    So, hang onto your hat, ravn, loads more non-dialectical flack coming your way.

    The summary of my demolition of Engels's odd idea that motion is 'contradictory' is about 75% complete. I should be able to post it within the next 24 hours. :-)
    The emancipation of the working class will be an act of the workers themselves.

    http://anti-dialectics.co.uk/index.htm

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